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Comment by George H on May 20, 2016 at 10:55pm

Mary was a True Believer and I watched her deteriorate for seven years until the day she died God is just a subject I won't do anymore I was brought up Catholic but I realize that most of that is just a fantasy I have no more belief but that's just me and everybody is entitled to their own opinion but if what I watched was controlled by an all-knowing and loving God then I don't want no part of that

Comment by stewart p on May 20, 2016 at 10:50pm

well again, Im not sure who it was or if i brought God in this, I dont think I did.  I actually posted a little while back some thoughts I had after starting a book by psychotherapist/ neurologist V. Frankl who shares some of his thoughts and insights from his own experience as well as those of others who have endured more grief at any one time than most of us will ever have to fortunately.  I believe it offered some hope and encouragement if there was any to be found.  Strength, even if only to get through just another day.  I know its hard.  I think somewhere some of you said your in the first few weeks or months.  I was a zombie most of that first year into the second, even wishing at times it had been me, and now here you remind me of how badly I felt, and Im not going to sit here and tell you I dont miss my wife, but I will tell you Im still here and looking back how I was those first few months is telling you something. 

Comment by bluebird on May 20, 2016 at 10:30pm

"Again, I will reiterate that even if there is a plan or purpose, I fervently believe that it is exceedingly cruel to make us the survivors suffer this unbearable grief, and exceedingly cruel to kill our beloved spouse young just to reach that purpose and prove a point. Can't be a loving God to be causing this kind of pain to get to His/Her plan and purpose. Even though not in those exact terms or as strongly expressed, I agree with Bluebird that either God is not loving, or not as powerful for the same reasons she has noted."

Agreed, Trina.

Stewart, I believed in a god for many years, then I was agnostic for many years. It is precisely the fact of my husband's untimely death that has proven the lack of a loving god to me.

Yes, I have sometimes seen good things which resulting from bad things.  That doesn't mean they were always worth it. Sometimes they probably were, and other times they were not. I think often it is just a matter of people trying to grasp some meaning or good out of horror. If there is a god which is omnipotent, then surely s/he could have caused that "good" to happen without the accompanying "bad" preceding it -- yet s/he sometimes chooses not to do so. Again, to me that points to a god, if it exists at all, which is either cruel or powerless.

In any case, what I can say with absolute certainty is that it is extremely unlikely that any "good" will come as a result of my husband's death, and even if it did/does, it would never be worth it, to me.  For the sake of argument, suppose my husband's death somehow led to a cure for some disease, or saved an orphanage full of children from burning to the ground, or the like -- still not worth it to me.  Selfish on my part? Yes, absolutely.  I simply don't care.

I really do respect your views; you are respectful in presenting them, and are clearly intelligent and well-spoken (well-written, I suppose, in this context).  I just don't share them.

Comment by Trina Mamoon on May 20, 2016 at 10:13pm

Again, I will reiterate that even if there is a plan or purpose, I fervently believe that it is exceedingly cruel to make us the survivors suffer this unbearable grief, and exceedingly cruel to kill our beloved spouse young just to reach that purpose and prove a point. Can't be a loving God to be causing this kind of pain to get to His/Her plan and purpose. Even though not in those exact terms or as strongly expressed, I agree with Bluebird that either God is not loving, or not as powerful for the same reasons she has noted.

If someone here doesn't want to accept the religious reasons given here for our unspeakable and undeserved suffering, then it would be best not to push those religious views to us, b/c no matter what it’s not to change our minds about how we feel towards our loss and grief.

And I agree, let's not make this site about religion and preaching. There are non-believers on this site, and those others like myself who are from a different religious background. It would be best not to promote a religious view that doesn't sound sympathetic, instead sounds judgmental. I am not saying that anyone is being judgmental, but it comes off as such, as if we have somehow deserved it or caused it.

This grief just doesn't get any less, especially on the weekends, at least for me... Peace to you all.

Comment by stewart p on May 20, 2016 at 9:51pm

and Joanne, please do not take anything I said to suggest that somehow there is something good with the loss of husband,there is of course nothing good in of itself about losing someone you love and are close to.  Nothing good at all, and if anything I said someone interprets such than pardon me for not scrutinizing my text closer.  Our losses are terrible, they are painful and real, and nothing we could prevent, so the question only is now how and what do we do and to the point earlier I shared some insight reading Viktor Frnkl's writings and a little bit about my faith as s plausible source for some ideas that some of us might be able to find some rest in.

Comment by stewart p on May 20, 2016 at 9:46pm

For bluebird & joanne, you bring up very good points and I wish to be careful I do not twist this thread into some sort of evangelical thread such is not my intent.  Despite years of my own skepticism and doubt my belief/faith is the result of two things primarily; 1) when I look at creation and all of its intricacies woven perfectly together I find it difficult to assume it all exists as a result of random chance while at the same time I look at a simple structure such as a building or road and intuitively know someone built it.    And 2nd, of the many promises offered from the bible I have yet to discover one that is not being or has been fulfilled my own life. It amazes me how easily people discredit the numerous eye witness accounts recorded in the most widely published and read book ever to exist on the planet earth and yet many of those same people will read one article in a tabloid and quickly conclude it to be true.  Such is the will of man however and even that is foretold.  There are several other reasons as well I will not get into but yeah, its pretty convincing that at some point one has to decide am I just a group of cellular tissue free floating through space or is there something more.  I realize we live in world choked full of skepticism today which is tragic and many will simply insist on chasing their own beliefs and so to that end I will defer engaging a debate here, but if one is truly objective and honest it becomes increasingly difficult to deny God his place.

No someone else mentioned how God could let happen or cause etc.  I think Dennis addressed this about as specific as one could get, but as I said before God promises he will use it for good.  Notice I said use it for good.  We can find countless stories from our history books where years or even decades later beauty rose among ashes following any number of tragedies.  I could begin to list them here but it would take hours, but if you look around you will find even in concentration camps, cancer wards, disasters, somewhere in there years later stories of triumph that caused others to come to believe.  In his word his HIS greatest purpose is revealed and it is that no one should be lost but all should be saved through him who he left on the cross to die a brutal death. 

Not knowing you but I have to ask hasn't there ever been a moment or twice in your life you looked up and even shook your fists and cried out why? Why me, why this or that?  Now being honest here with yourself if you ever have than perhaps there is a small sliver of your soul that suspects maybe there is a God, and if that is so why not take a leap of faith and ask him to come into your life just as you ae right here and now, to accept you with all your doubts and skepticism.  You might be surprised in time what might happen. Just a thought, but lets not start debating it here and in doing so hijack the thread. 

Comment by bluebird on May 20, 2016 at 7:41pm

I agree with joanne.

stewart, while I respect your views (and Dennis' views), I do not share them. Not everyone believes in a god at all, and of those who do, not everyone believes in the Judeo-Christian version of god.  I cannot ask god to give me comfort, peace, or strength, for a few reasons. Firstly, because I do not believe that any god exists. Secondly, if a god does exist, it allowed my husband to die at age 40, one week after our wedding; if it had the power to prevent that and chose not to, then clearly it does not care about me, nor about my husband.  If a god exists, and if it has the power to give me comfort, peace, and strength, then it likely also had the ability to prevent my husband's death and allow him to live the many more years with me that we should have had.  That god, if it exists, did not do this, proves to me that if it does exist, it is either cruel and allowed my husband to die (and therefore deserves and receives from me nothing but hatred), or it is powerless (and therefore essentially useless, in which case I do not actually consider it a god).

There is absolutely NO good purpose to my husband's death; his death has caused nothing but anguish to those who love him, especially me.  Even if, by some unlikely chance, some small bit of good came about as the result of his death, it would not be worth it.  It would never be worth it.

You believe that there is a god who "uses all things for good purpose", and you say that in your experience that has always held true.  Ok, that is your experience, but it is not everyone's experience. It is certainly not mine.

Quite honestly, if there is a god, I do not care in the least what it wants.  If it exists, it has betrayed me, and it is my enemy.

Comment by Chum on May 20, 2016 at 7:41pm

Well damn. This morning my husbands dog died after 15 years of a happy healthy life. Beau chose Jordan the first time he saw him, climbing onto his lap and never leaving. One Jordan's last day the nurses let Beau onto the bed with him. This spring I have been making a memorial garden to scatter Jordan's ashes on the anniversary of his death. Now he will have his old dog with him. Happy trails.

Comment by Dennis C. on May 20, 2016 at 6:21am

The Bible says:

Job 34:10 (nwt-E) — So listen to me, you men of understanding: It is unthinkable for the true God to act wickedly, For the Almighty to do wrong!

So if this is true, why is there so much suffering?

The first human couple rebelled against God’s rulership, choosing to set their own standards of good and bad. They turned away from God and suffered the consequences.

Today we are experiencing the effects of their bad choice. But in no way did God originate human suffering.

Also...it is clearly taught in the Bible that Satan is ruler of this world.

You can read a more extensive discussion on this topic here:

https://www.jw.org/finder?locale=en&docid=1102012190&prefer...

Comment by joanne on May 20, 2016 at 3:34am

Stewart, I respect your beliefs, I really do , but if God does exsits, how can you say he does not cause suffering, I'd love you to tell that to my 10 year old daughter, whos suffering at the loss of her dad, to hear her sobbing nightly, constantly asking me if she can have her daddy back, and why did he have to go, He was a good man, he didn't deserve to die, he didn't have a bad bone in his body, his death was not a consequence of the world we live in, it was a cruel , needless act, and if it was an act of god, then I'm sorry but he really is horrid, I look at my children everyday and see the pain in their eyes,what possible good can ever come of their suffering.

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