Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mark on October 1, 2012 at 5:46pm

Dennis, I attended christian schools and college and bible was a daily requirement every day, every year.  Along with Church on Wed, Sat, and Sundays I look back and probably had a bit too much of that going on in my life.  The reason I give you that little background of information is to understand how I personally feel about what the bible is and is not and why I feel the way I do about an alleged God that has never been seen in our life time.

The bible was not written to inform us of God's solution to our problem.  The bible in it's entirety is nothing more than a history book with several humans account of the early movements of the Hebrew nation seeking independence.  The bible slowly became a tool to manipulate that movement based on a humans definition of a God and what that God allegedly thinks feels and says with a very wrathful outcome if a person does not abide by the suggestions of the human writing the words.  The bible is not written by God.  You will not find Gods handwriting in that book. 

What we as humans do in digesting these man written words is nothing but a time honored tradition of manufacturing a God that feels right to us individually.  That's why there are so many debates and disagreements but the honest final analysis of every opinion is just that.  It's nothing more than an opinion where one is no more correct than the other. 

Did God really exact his anger in the Old testament?  We will never know.  Could man have manipulated other man into doing horrid things to others suggesting it was ordained by God?  Well, we already know sadly that does happen.  We weren't there during that time to know for sure although it is always interesting that the final analysis when it comes to a man telling someone what they should do because God has ordained it includes a side note of a very vengeful God that will get even with them if they don't do as instructed. 

Has God really been angry?  I'd say unless someone has a video of God almighty stating he is holy pissed off no one knows what a God thinks and feels.  Using basic logic the question would be... Why would God be mad?  We are told he knows every thing.  Allegedly gave a glimpse into the future which means allegedly he knew what was to come.  How could he be surprised if he knew what was to come?  What did he expect from mankind?  Were we to be robots?  Were we created to crawl at his feet and stay as stupid as a box of rocks and never challenge the fact that it appears his biggest concern is feeding his ego and being the most loved and adored thing?  And if thats the case we were created as nothing more than the equivalent to a dog.  In general isn't it just exhaustive to define an entity we haven't seen nor heard of as being angry because our minds have decided that's how he must feel?  I see zero justification in his anger given he created it and saw what was to come.  That is if he really exists. 

I scratch my head wondering how God is the solution at this point.  The solution to much of the crud going on lies within us and I don't think creating some fluffy loving daddy figure in your mind creates the solution.  It should just be common sense.  I think God is the one who messed up.  If he exists.  I think his expectation for mankind failed assuming we'd all be robots and think and feel as he tried to script without considering we are unique individuals.  I also feel a God just simply will never ever understand human suffering.  It's a level of powerlessness that a God would never experience.  Some humans can hold on to hope their entire life while going through complete hell because to survive is primal and yet at the end of the road they still died miserable.  They tried every thing but it just never got any better.  A God has ultimate power and knows at a certain point in the blink of an eye they can change it all for their own good.  A God has zero clue what true unchangeable complete and total failure is. 

This type of entity if it does exists needs to be held accountable.  It allegedly requests ultimate worship or tosses a human into eternal torture.  It sits back with two huge thumbs up approving certain behavior while others walk a life of complete exhaustive hell.  What does this God say when asked why he allowed this?  It was a test for the weary?  How sick would that be?  To be entertained by someones agony.  A test for what?  Faith in him?  Is he kidding?  He's the most adored thing floating around already.  He needs more to the point of allowing agony? I don't see any love in this nor a worthy entity that has earned that worship.  I'm more inclined to say a God like that just doesn't get humans and in the end the humans who were selected to be born and live tortured life on earth should be this Gods judge and jury and exact the same ravages he so freely allowed to happen to them. 

Personally I think there are three choices a person can decide from when it comes to a God and all three are acceptable.  1.  He's this big daddy in the sky who just loves the heck out of you and will pet you like a puppy on the head when you feel alone.  You never hear from him but you just know he's there because you swear you can feel him around you.  Honestly, you could give the same power to a head of lettuce and achieve the same feeling but because that wasn't implemented centuries ago that would just seem whacko. 2.  God is keeping a list and checking it twice.  Gonna find out who's naughty or nice and when he comes he's kicking some butt while others who know for a fact are going to get to live in the emerald city with him forever worshiping the very thing that has separated you from loved ones and friends with the purpose of worshiping him.  It's gonna be complete bliss never seeing certain ones again because this God believes none of that matters to us our goal is to be in his presence and feed his ego.  I'm personally thinking that isn't perfect utopia but more like an ugly plantation with an out of control massa.   3.  Just let it go and stop worrying about something above us.  It hurts to think you were a test for something so you had to endure all the pain and loss.  It hurts if you convince yourself that you ever deserved the hell you encountered when you know you'd never do to others what you've been forced to endure.  It's lousy to even think you may have been nothing more than some chess piece in this alleged constant battle between a so called good entity vs a bad entity.  consuming your mind with all that just isn't worth it. Trust if there is another realm that you are worthy to be there.  Instead of feeling like some big daddy is carrying you why not give yourself a little credit for having the strength to go on?  God does not pay your bills you do.  God didn't get the education to acquire your vocation.  you did. But some how God gets the glory for just about every thing.  Never seen an amputee's arm grow back.  I've never seen a real healing where some mangled dying soul jumps up and is truly healed without medicine involved but some how we've allowed the construction of a very strange entity that we place everything in it's lap.  If we are going to do that then I'm blaming him for neglect, abandonment, disease, agony, torture. 

If a God exists I believe he just doesn't get it and cocks his head sideways like a confused dog drinking it all in.  I'm not even sure if he expects any worship.  He's God.  The over seer he's already got it all.  I'd think he was pathetic if he needed to be worshiped constantly.  I even think if there is a God he's imperfect and fallible and may in fact be ashamed and say he's sorry. There may be no account of this in a book that is written by humans but it's just as possible.  I guess we find out when we die.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 2, 2012 at 5:53am

Mark,

First, before I respond to anything else can we establish something. You believe that the Bible was not inspired of God. That it is just a product of men. I respect that. And you of course are free to use any source of knowledge that you have as authority to establish what you see as fact. Other philosophies, your own experiences, etc.

My experience with atheists has been one of great intolerance of the Bible. They refuse to allow me to use it to establish my conclusions. Even though I listen to them, and allow them to use any authority they choose (even their own opinions) to establish the validity of their view, the Bible is rejected out of hand. I use the Bible as my authority. There are many reasons why I do that. Many reasons why I have concluded that it is inspired of God. That is a different topic altogether and I won't get into that here, but I state it now because I am usually treated like an idiot just because I use the Bible and quote it to explain my position.

I just want the opportunity to express my views with the authority I use to establish it. That would be the Bible.

Also, you will find that I believe strongly that religion has taught distortions, lies, gross untruth's etc, abusing the Bible for their own purpose. I hold religion responsible for the abuse of the Bible, but I have tried hard to understand what the Bible REALLY says.

Example: I see absolutely no Biblical evidence that God sends anyone to a Hell to torment them forever. The Bible actually teaches us that there is no consciousness after death.

According to the Bible our "thoughts perish" at death (Psalms 146:4) and that the dead are "conscious of nothing at all" (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

Religion teaches people of a God that would torture people forever in a hellfire. THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT.

I guess I will leave it at that for now. There are many other teachings of Religion that are NOT in the Bible, but are purported to be scriptural.

Permalink Reply by Mark on October 2, 2012 at 9:36pm

Dennis,  Please know that in no way would I ever try to take anything away from you that you may use as a tool for your own understanding.  I hope you will understand that I may not give authority to the book you are giving authority to. 

I don't know if I need to clarify this but I wouldn't fall into the category of atheist.  Not that you were suggesting I am but I just wanted to make sure that is established.  There is doubt in my mind that man has got it all figured out.  Even with a book written by other men claiming their words were inspired by a God.  The reason comments about what God thinks or feels while referencing the bible usually sit there with little impact for me is because there is a wide open door as to if those words written by other humans are even worth consideration.  There have been moments where I've heard some of the oddest interpretations of certain versus.  In moments like that I'd swear it comes off like a person staring at a cluster of clouds and if you look at the clouds long enough you can make them into any shape or form you desire.  The "power" of some trying to use the bible as absolute validation on their opinions is risky.  It can unfortunately turn into a condescending situation where the one who keeps referencing what they call Gods word ( not actually written by him ) begins to suggest the same God in question does side with their opinion and if you aren't agreeing with that opinion they may even pray for you.  It sorta gets out of hand.

As I said this is a gutsy topic especially when we are all dealing with the loss of loved ones.  All I can say again and again is that unfortunately on top of every thing else for the rest of my life I will hold God accountable if he or she exists for some very horrifying uncalled for events.  I hate it,  but I'm human.  What my mom was forced to endure her entire life was jaw dropping.  I'd actually tell some in control of it all higher power to shut it up if he proceeded to shove some justification in there as to why she deserved all that or avoided acknowledging the hell and pointed out 3 minutes of happiness as being her saving grace in life.  Because of what I saw ever day there is no way anyone not even a person who could rattle bible versus off every day as examples will ever make me feel comfortable about God.  Those that haven't truly seen a hard life and who cling to a God unseen for comfort are lucky.  When your life goes so low you have to reach up to touch bottom and it continues for decades and culminates in even more horror you see life completely different and those feelings of ambivalence to ever see a God as one of mercy are destroyed.

If a God exists I asks of only one thing from him.  A sincere apology.  Not some slop about why it all had to happen the way it did.  That would be tacky.  Just apologize and leave me alone to think about it.  My love for my mother is more than can be measured.  He knows this and in knowing this if he is real and fair he will get me.  If not,  I don't care.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 2, 2012 at 9:50pm

Dennis,

I am just curioius but are you a Jehova's Witness?

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on September 30, 2012 at 9:24am

Dennis,

I would like to go back to one of my points I made earlier (I am not trying to disprove G-D.  Just looking for answers). 

What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to G-D in this way:

Dear G-D, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when G-D answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify G-D and help millions of people in remarkable ways.  Will anything happen? No. Of course not.This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and G-D will answer your prayers.

If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

 

Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of G-D" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask G-D to cure cancer today, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again... 

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 2, 2012 at 7:46am

Kim,

Let me explain it this way.

The Bible teaches us this at

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that, no matter
what it is that we ask according to his will, he hears us. 15 Further, if we
know he hears us respecting whatever we are asking, we know we are to have the
things asked since we have asked them of him.

Did you notice that there is a condition? What we ask must be in accordance with God's will. That makes sense. If I prayed for something that was good for me but bad for someone else, why would God answer me and hurt someone else?

Now ridding the earth of cancer would not hurt anyone else, and I personally believe that God WILL eradicate cancer (and all other disease) from this earth!!!!

He will also give life back to all those who have died from it.

The Bible teaches of the time when our earth will be free of all of the suffering we see.

Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death
will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The
former things have passed away.

So God fully intends on ending this insanity. The next question is "why hasn't he ended it yet"? The Bible actually explains that. The nutshell is this - to benefit the MOST people with the future he promises, he has set a time to intervene when it will maximize his Kingdom Rule.

If he acted when we wanted him to, according to our wisdom, then the long term results would fall short of the maximum benefit.

So if we understand what God is accomplishing, and what he intends to do, and what the long term benefits will be, it helps us get through the intense suffering of the day.

If a person thinks that God intended for us all to die so that we can either go to Heaven or Hell then it is no wonder we get angry with God. That is what religion teaches. It is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Here is a scripture that speaks of this a bit.

2 Peter 3:9 God is not slow respecting his promise, as some people
consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not
desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

There is sooooo much more to discuss, but I have to get going.

Please know that all I really desire, is Comfort through Truth. For not only me, but everyone who is suffering.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 2, 2012 at 8:51am

Thank you for your information.  However, are you telling me that what the Bible teaches in John 14:12-14 is wrong but John5:14 is correct?  You proved one of my points of contradition in the bible.  It appears that we can take any verse in the bible and make it fit our arguement/discussion.  I understand what you mean finding comfort through Truth.  I am searching for the truth too.

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 2, 2012 at 2:03pm

Kim,

Here is my thinking on the matter of prayer.

These two scriptures do not contradict each other, they compliment each other. Using both of them together gives us a clear understanding of what the Bible as a whole is telling us. And how God will answer prayers.

The difficulty I have with your understanding of John 14:12-14 is what it opens up with other issues. If I pray for issue A with my supposed solution, and you pray for issue A with your supposed solution, and our ideas are diametrically opposed, which one will God answer? It is only logical that God would answer according to what was in harmony with his standards, will, and purpose.

John 14:12-14 is not addressed to everyone and anyone!! Check your own verse. It is anyone who has faith in Jesus, and follows his example. I dare say that this does NOT describe most Christians. Just my opinion, not a judgement.

But even then, doesn't it make sense that if someone prays about something that God disagreed with, he would NOT answer that prayer? So what John said about asking according to God's will makes perfect sense, and is in complete harmony with what Jesus said about prayer. A least to me.

So if you and I pray that cancer end right now, and God does not answer that prayer I would look for answers as to why? Does it mean he will NEVER end cancer? Does it mean that he doesn't care? Does it mean that he is cruel? What are the reasons for the delay? What does God intend to do about it?

I believe 100% that the answers to all of those questions are in the Bible.

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on September 30, 2012 at 10:01am

Dennis,

I guess some of the issues I have with the bible and G-D is the contradictions.  One example is onthe day Moses comes down from Mount Sinai with the stone tablets containing the Ten Commandments, he discovers that the Israelites have created a golden calf. To punish the people, Moses gathers a group of men and takes the following action in the book of Exodus, Chapter 32:

Then he [Moses] said to them, "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

So... one minute we have God carving into stone, "Thou shalt not kill." Then the next minute we have God telling each man to strap a sword to his side and lay waste to thousands. Wouldn't you expect the almighty ruler of the universe to be slightly more consistent than this? 3,000 dead people is a lot of commandment breaking. Obviously that is a total contradiction.

Permalink Reply by Mark on September 30, 2012 at 10:08pm

gutsy topic.  You already know by some of my posts I am very angry with God.  I'd probably define my situation with a God as being "estranged" at this point.  It's as if there is a scale of balance and on one side you have a definition of a loving, coddling, father figure who would never allow things to get so severe that you couldn't reach within yourself and rise above the challenge.  Then there is the other side of the scale which suggests if there is a God his only concern is being loved, adored, and worshiped and he hand picks who he lavishes protection, peach, and prosperity on while others are hand picked to be chew toys taking on many ravages of life. 

I despise both sides of this scale to be honest.  The one gooey type of God is basically through the mind of a child that expects this creature to coddle them like a puppy but the creature never appears, never speaks, and the cycle of life just simple dictates some will not be granted a fair dose of challenges that they can handle but will sadly be shoveled piles beyond what most could take on.  The gooey side of the scale also presents and opportunity to embrace a form of schizophrenia where some will give this unheard creature a voice.  Because it's allegedly from a God that they hear in their heart it isn't seen as an illness.  That other side of the scale where it's nothing but an egotistical at times threatening abusive parent is sadly what I've been forced to imagine this God may be like.  It hurts deeply to be handed that image but considering all things I watched and the final journey my mother had to endure no God no matter how mighty or perfect it thought it was could ever justify the years of physical pain my mother went through.  If I look at it that way then yes this God who created life and everything around is in fact to blame for my mothers pain, agony and death.  I would also find it to be a very strange God that seems to be linked to love yet would allow evil to create agonizing death.  There is no logic behind that.  The even sicker conclusion in asking a God why he allowed it would be ... Well, he's God don't ask questions.  Now honestly is that a fair question?  Personally I think this God is imperfect by allowing suffering and pain.  So....

My alternative instead of thinking God hated us for all those years of pain would be to say there just can't be a God.  I flip flop on it all the time.  I guess like all those who say he blesses them there are days I wish I could have been one of the blessed.  That my mom was loved by him and that she still exists all healthy in another realm but then all kinds of thoughts arise as to me not even wanting to be near him knowing that if the situation had been reversed and I dared to hand him the life we lived God may have been pretty pissed off at me.  The bible presented God as very jealous and very vengeful.  Although without all the powers he'd be simply human and perhaps for the first time ever would truly understand what agony really is and that we are not robots all responding the same way.  We each deal with it any multiple ways.

I hate that for the rest of my life on this earth I probably will never feel completely comfortable with the concept of God.  Not by my choice but by way of life's journey.  It's actually strange.  Late one evening I'd say around 3 in the morning it was time to turn mom, do a round of med's and run some tests.  I hated waking her.  I didn't want to startle her so instead of looming in her face so she'd be shocked when she opened her eyes I'd stand to her side and softly touch her hip and quietly call her name.  This particular evening she responded I'm awake but she kept her eye's closed.  I proceeded to start the routine and began very slowly turning her.  Suddenly she said.. Be careful.  Don't break my wings.  My first thought was ... ok, the drugs are still working.  So I casually asked, where did you get the wings?  She said... shhh the angels let me borrow them.  Since her eye's were closed I asked if she could see them.  She said yes.  and out of nowhere she said they had a message for me.  I said ok, whats that?  She said ... You've got to learn how to forgive.  Then she mentioned something about too many feathers in her nose.  But, that has always stayed with me.  I feel like If there is a God somewhere I've got to learn to forgive him for all of this but right now I find it an impossible task.  My love for my mother is so great I can't forgive anything that had the power to stop the agony. 

Permalink Reply by Dennis C. on October 1, 2012 at 6:19pm

Thanks for all the dialogue Kim and Mark. If you bear with me I can put some responses together so that I can express my thoughts on everything discussed.

I must say, VERY THOUGHT PROVOKING INDEED!!!

Thanks again

Permalink Reply by Kim Phillips on October 1, 2012 at 9:26pm

WOW! Mark you said everything I have felt but couldn't put into words.  What amazes me is that when I talk to religious people about G-D and question this and that, all I get is them rationalizing for G-D's action or non action - for his behaviors - for his thoughts etc.   

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